Has the fandom destroyed ShizNat for yuri lovers and HiME fans alike?

Yes, the fandom has completely destroyed Mai HiME/Otome. Half the shit in that section, the authors have never even watched the anime and are basing their characterizations on someone else's idea. The other half are tryhards and posting fanon crap.

The only time Natsuki is eating mayo is in the short where she's talking to Nagi. I have no idea where that started and I want to slap the person that did. She's not obsessed with it. Same with Shizuru and tea. Natsuki is also not dumber than a sack of rocks and is very feminine. I wish people would stop with that crap too.

The fandom has made me loath Shizuru, like you said has been happening. I no longer love her, or how complex of a character she is. I no longer ship ShizuNatsu, and now ship NatNao. And even that is so poorly done that I can't stomach reading most of it. I also hate what they do to Tate, Reito and Takeda. They're not bad guys and are just victims of circumstance.

The fandom has turned to complete pooey and there are only a handful of stories worth reading anymore.

Basically I agree with everything you said XD

Ouch!

...I completely disagree? Well, not with the quantity of crap out there. But I didn't even enter the HiME fandom in 2009, and the same questions were being asked back then. And, my feelings really haven't changed from then:

Crap fiction will always be crap. Sturgeon's Law applies in any fandom popular enough to have more than two or three people writing stories (I contrast you with the GrimGrimoire fandom, where your opinion on whether the fandom has destroyed Lillet/Amoretta pretty much depends on your opinion of my writing since I've produced about 75% of the written fiction in the whole fandom ). Since the Mai franchise is fairly popular, it's produced a ton of bad fiction. Again, applying Sturgeon's Law, there are as of now 3781 Mai-franchise fics at fanfiction.net alone, of which, therefore, 3403 are crap. That's a lot of bad writing. On the other hand, it's 378 good fics by the same math, which is only a couple dozen fics less than exist in total for Kannazuki no Miko.

Bad writers will paint with broad strokes because they have no idea of how to write the nuances of a character. It's a thousand times worse in "humor" fics because immature minds find laughter in even broader strokes. Thus "Natsuki's favorite food is mayonnaise"* becomes "Natsuki puts a quart of mayonnaise in her soup." "Shizuru likes tea and practices tea ceremony" becomes "Shizuru never goes anywhere without tea in hand." "Takeda is an overzealous guy with a hopeless crush and horrible luck" becomes "Takada is a horrific monster who must be destroyed, DESTROYED I TELL YOU!!!!!!!!!!" (I'm amazed how much Reito gets similar treatment from the Shizuru side of the ship, given that he spends the entire series pursuing a different girl, I must admit. )

*It's in her character profile on the official website, BTW.

...and frankly, canon doesn't help, either. Most of the Drama CD tracks spend more time going for trashy humor (Negi. 'Nuff said.) than entertaining stories. Most of Otome and Zwei were spent in idiotic comedy, Flanderization, and fanservice (You want to complain about idiot fandom members making Haruka out to look like a fool and a blowhard? Let's talk about what Sunrise did, in making her someone who has to be hit on the head with giant boulders by her own side to keep from doing something obvious and stupid in military situations.).

So...no, I don't find that my enjoyment of Shizuru and Natsuki has been destroyed by the fandom. I think it helps that I was never a big participant in "the fandom" per se (my enjoyment of Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha, on the other hand, was completely destroyed by my interactions with the fans rather than any reaction to the creative fanworks). I ignore bad writing as best I can and prefer to savor the fiction that instead treats these, and other characters, as enjoyable and pleasant, so that I can appreciate their nuances for who they are.

...On the other hand, I write stories in which the cast goofs around with miniature versions of their CHILDs, so who the hell am I to complain, anyway, right?

Gettin' mad about bad fanfiction on the internet. .__.

Is it odd that I usually avoid ShizNat fanfics with poorly written/clichéd summaries and ridiculous amounts of reviews on the basis that it will likely have everything I hate about the fandom in it? Whether the characters are skewed to the extreme

Example:

or it's the same clichéd storylines over and over ad nauseum.

The fandom is a double-edged sword because on one hand, it makes me want to write something with proper characterization, have none of those godforsaken memes, and have it be an actual contribution worth putting out there. On the other hand, I just don't give a crap because for all the people that complain about the fandom being stupid, there are probably hundreds more that go "OMG mayo-flavored tea lololol best fic EVER!" And don't even get me started on the vampire and werewolf AUs--they're overblown enough as it is.

DezoPenguin wrote:...On the other hand, I write stories in which the cast goofs around with miniature versions of their CHILDs, so who the hell am I to complain, anyway, right?

Your "Duran and Kiyohime's Omake Theater" never fails to make me smile when I see it's been updated. IMO, you're perfectly entitled to complain because it's obvious that even in AU settings, you work to keep to the original personalities as much as possible.

Kagu wrote:
Is it odd that I usually avoid ShizNat fanfics with poorly written/clichéd summaries and ridiculous amounts of reviews on the basis that it will likely have everything I hate about the fandom in it? Whether the characters are skewed to the extreme

Example:

Windows of the Soul managed to do angsty post-Carnival Shizuru very well. Largely because her angst and guilt were over serious things like raping Natsuki (yes, Lestaki took the worst possible interpretation of that scene) and slaughtering dozens of people who didn't come back from the dead, even if they were members of an evil government conspiracy rather than wallowing in gayngst--and because she and Natsuki both were presented as extremely complex characters. I've read a couple of other good ones...and seen soooooooooo many utterly awful ones.

I guess it all comes down to characterization. The type of fic you describe is full of fail because it makes Shizuru angsty over something that was already resolved in canon and ignores character development for both halves of the pairing. Actually, that tends to be a real hallmark of bad fanfiction. The Kannazuki no Miko fandom, even in continuation fics, is utterly awash in stories which have zero-self-esteem, shrinking-violet Himeko and pristine, perfect, horribly-angsty-inside Chikane, ignoring both the truth lying beneath these appearances and the major steps both of them take forward in the story. While I'm not sick of ShizNat generally, I have no desire at all to read set-in-canon stories where for some reason Natsuki hasn't learned to trust in other people and admit that she can care for them, and where Shizuru hasn't opened herself up to Natsuki instead of hiding behind smiles and fufufus. And for that matter, I'm not all that interested in reading 'em in AU either, because the authors often don't have the capacity to recognize that both are complex characters.

The fandom is a double-edged sword because on one hand, it makes me want to write something with proper characterization, have none of those godforsaken memes, and have it be an actual contribution worth putting out there.

I encourage you to go with this impulse!

DezoPenguin wrote:...On the other hand, I write stories in which the cast goofs around with miniature versions of their CHILDs, so who the hell am I to complain, anyway, right?

Your "Duran and Kiyohime's Omake Theater" never fails to make me smile when I see it's been updated. IMO, you're perfectly entitled to complain because it's obvious that even in AU settings, you work to keep to the original personalities as much as possible.

Aw, thank you.

Hm...you know, it seems that glancing through this thread, everybody seems to agree on what's wrong with the pairing's treatment; it's just a matter of whether that has worn down one's patience for the characters and pairing (presuming, of course, that one liked them in the first place, as there are also people who never liked Shizuru and/or Natsuki to begin with).

See, I hated Windows of the Soul. I hated his characterizations. What Kagu described with Shizuru angst is what I think of when I think of that story.

I agree, I think we all know what is wrong with the section as a whole (it could be worse, it could be the SP section o.o; ). Honestly, being Shay's beta has made me loath the fandom with such disdain that it's hard to put into words. I can't stand most of the fans because they're idiots and are only interested in perpetuating these overused fanon characterizations. I'm one of those people that has lost all patience for this fandom, and most of the others.

I don't understand those people that write/read a pairing when they don't like one of the characters, or haven't watched the anime.

I'll answer the actual question sometime, but I just wanted to add that it's mostly comments like this that've destroyed the "fandom." Last time I checked, this was the Mai Hime fandom, and not the Shiznat fandom, so we I get comments telling me to delete other chapters and just write Shiznat, know what that makes me want to do? Not write Shiznat. ^^

"Story: What Could Be
Chapter: 2. Angels

From: Anonymous
-------------------
Get rid of this chapter... its stupid and not really important. More ShizNat please. :3"

Lul, excuse me sir or madam "Anonymous," you go onto a short-story collection of mine where I say not all the stories will be Shiznat, and tell me to delete a story that's centered around my favorite pairing (which is *gasp!* not Shiznat!), you can gtfo my stories. :3 If you want more Shiznat you write it. :3 And you see how adding cat faces isn't making this post any "cuter" or "likeable?" :3 Oh, and I deleted your review because it pissed me off. :3

Yeah, this has put me off of fanfiction for a while. -_- /end of rant

Wow, I can't believe someone actually 'commented' that (since they're apparently no longer called reviews).

I ranted to Kagu a little before posting it here. But yeah, I can understand not like Midori/Youko and wanting more Shiznat (don't read it then?), but to actually go out and tell the author to delete a chapter is absolutely ridiculous. You guys think I write to appease you all? No. I happen to do this because I like writing as a hobby.

I wonder why they're called comments now? Because no one actually "reviews" anymore? =/

Probably. I remember getting a text from Shay telling me that they're no longer called reviews.

Looking at what readers leave behind, they are really more like comments than reviews.

I hear you, demon. Writing is a hobby, not to appease readers!

looks like some of you hated SHIZNAT but I do like them... it depends on the writer if they like to made Reito, Takeda and Yuichi a bad guys on SHIZNAT FANFIC... we don't have a right to tell them that it was wrong... walang pakialamanan.... I'M A SHIZNAT FANS FOREVER.... if you like make your own story without SHIZNAT and let's see.. if they want to see it and fave them....

SHIZNAT......

therese_tessa wrote:looks like some of you hated SHIZNAT but I do like them... it depends on the writer if they like to made Reito, Takeda and Yuichi a bad guys on SHIZNAT FANFIC... we don't have a right to tell them that it was wrong... walang pakialamanan.... I'M A SHIZNAT FANS FOREVER.... if you like make your own story without SHIZNAT and let's see.. if they want to see it and fave them.

First off, welcome to the forum, Tessa! ^^/ Glad you could join us on Dare.

As for hating Shiznat, we don't hate it. (Well, maybe Ala might have grown to dislike that pairing, if I remember correctly.) Some of us are just tired of seeing only Shiznat, or how people often portray the two in fanfiction.

I like Shiznat. I still read Shiznat occasionally. But they're not my favorite pairing for this series. Maybe second or third favorite, but not my first.

ShizNat has been milked a bit to much, the community has established a weird canon around them that has roots in other fanfiction instead of original series.

Things like fujino corp, natsuki owning a garage shop, Natsuki and Shizuru obsessed with mayo and tea. The novelty of them has worn out.

I still like shiznat, and i still follow a few fictions regarding them, but it would be nice if the characters were less flanderized (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Flanderization) in them. Shizuru is either a genius superhuman talented in everything, or a walking emotional wreck and that is starting to get annoying.

...Guys. You guys. I just realized something.

If Shizuru's accent/dialect is comparable to the United States Southern accent/dialect

has anybody actually...y'know...written her in English-language fanfics as talking in a Southern drawl?

Because it's always been "elegant" this and "Natsuki melted at her sexy accent" that and I don't think I've ever seen anything otherwise.

(If yes, please tell me. I just had this stunning revelation while not quite entirely awake and it's sufficiently blown my mind.)

I seem to remember the artist Ookami (forgot her full name) mentioning this. Shizuru was never implied to be a rich lady (The house was a classmates). but more of a refined country bumpkin. Hence the choice was southern belle.

Of course everyone writes her as a twenty something CEO from a insanely rich family instead.

I dislike the pairing these days for everything Oaden's said.

I don't like this pairing anymore and once the fics I'm following end, that will be it.

That's a very good point Neko. I agree with all of it.

Everything I've already wanted to say has been said, so in short, my answer is "no, I still like the pairing". There's always going to be bad fanfic for any popular thing - you just need to take a gander down to the Hetalia section to see that - but those bad fanfics don't negate the existence of good ones. If the bad fanfics bother you, just don't read them?

That being said, I wish there was more variety of pairings in the fanfic, but eh. I'll read anything if it's good, so the actual pairings don't bother me.

If Shizuru's accent/dialect is comparable to the United States Southern accent/dialect

iirc Kansai-ben is just a more melodic version of Tokyo-ben that has a historical link towards using keigo, or "polite" Japanese speech.

Kyoto-ben is regarded as elegant and refined, with a relatively strong tendency towards indirectness and respect, as well as being a very delicate/feminine way of speaking. Obviously that's becoming more and more obsolete in practice with industrialisation and migration, but mangaka and authors will usually use Kyoto-ben for the epitome of grace and... poshness, if you will, so a royal British accent might be more of an accurate English localisation.

Of course, even after all that, Japan's dialects aren't technically what we'd call accents. As you've probably read in the multitudes of fanfics you've mentioned, dialects in Japan focus more on alternative words rather than vocal inflection, so saying "arimahen/omahen" instead of "arimasen", and "dosu e" instead of "desu yo". I'm hesitant to use "ikezu", "kannin na" or "ookini" as examples for obvious reasons.

Any antropologists focusing on Japan should feel free to jump in and correct me if I've got that info from disreputable sources or anything, though.

tl;dr The American Southern accent would be a fairer comparison to posh Osaka-ben rather than Kyoto-ben and translating a dialect into an accent is awkward anyway.

Slight digression here, but am I the only one who finds bad fanfiction hilarious? Hijacked My Pregnancy, anyone? No?