Has the fandom destroyed ShizNat for yuri lovers and HiME fans alike?

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Has the fandom destroyed ShizNat for yuri lovers and HiME fans alike?

Post by MidnightPersona on Tue May 15, 2012 6:35 am

Shizuru Fujino and Natsuki Kuga. Archmeister Shizuru Viola and Gakuenchou Natsuki Kruger.

HiME. Otome. Two series with two characters that stand out. Whether we want them to or not!

Some of us have been fans of the Mai-Series for years, some just beginning, but we all know some of us saw ShizNat before anything else. But have the fans ruined ShizNat?

You see fanfictions in both canon and AU setting, you see spinning leeks and a ton of mayo and puppy ears. The question is have the fans kept true to the REAL Shizuru and Natsuki or have these imperfect yet relateable icons been twisted into something that most would consider 'perfect' and yet insufferable?

I, for one, am against how most (note I didn't say all) people write and treat ShizNat. I may be the Resident HaruKino Fanwhore, but I have a strong love for Shizuru and Natsuki and a bond I feel that should be shared and their imperfections and love and suffering that gets worked out, explored, and slowly understood by fans overtime.

I, myself, do not see the characters that I watched and grew to love in HiME/Otome in most of the fanfictions I see and dread seeing this overused and abused pairing everywhere. People forget that Shizuru Fujino and Natsuki Kuga are far from perfect. They forget that there is perfection in imperfection and to explore the issue and bond that the two formed within the series without completely abusing it... or abusing other characters while doing such.

Haruka and Yukino are abused to put Shizuru and Natsuki in a better light, especially by making Haruka a 'fool' when she is far from.

Takeda, poor guy, is made out as a pervert and unwholesome guy when he's just in the wrong place at the wrong time and has never went out of his way to violate Natsuki or her personal space.

Nao is used consistently as a ploy to put something--anything--to make the couple more interesting at times and, while at times original, makes the poor spider-girl seem to be nothing more than a pawn for ShizNat tales.

I know people whom wish other couples could be seen and heard and whom use to love Shizuru only to have the fans ruin the poor Kaichou's image with unseen and unneed edits that anyone not use to looking deeper into the series may miss and so, while easy to trick those whom love shallow tales of sex and fluff... those of us whom desire more heart and soul are left with shallow shells of what ShizNat could be.

Thoughts?
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Re: Has the fandom destroyed ShizNat for yuri lovers and HiME fans alike?

Post by Alaeri on Thu May 17, 2012 4:27 pm

Yes, the fandom has completely destroyed Mai HiME/Otome. Half the shit in that section, the authors have never even watched the anime and are basing their characterizations on someone else's idea. The other half are tryhards and posting fanon crap.

The only time Natsuki is eating mayo is in the short where she's talking to Nagi. I have no idea where that started and I want to slap the person that did. She's not obsessed with it. Same with Shizuru and tea. Natsuki is also not dumber than a sack of rocks and is very feminine. I wish people would stop with that crap too.

The fandom has made me loath Shizuru, like you said has been happening. I no longer love her, or how complex of a character she is. I no longer ship ShizuNatsu, and now ship NatNao. And even that is so poorly done that I can't stomach reading most of it. I also hate what they do to Tate, Reito and Takeda. They're not bad guys and are just victims of circumstance.

The fandom has turned to complete pooey and there are only a handful of stories worth reading anymore.

Basically I agree with everything you said XD

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Re: Has the fandom destroyed ShizNat for yuri lovers and HiME fans alike?

Post by DezoPenguin on Fri May 25, 2012 10:11 pm

Ouch!

...I completely disagree? Well, not with the quantity of crap out there. But I didn't even enter the HiME fandom in 2009, and the same questions were being asked back then. And, my feelings really haven't changed from then:

Crap fiction will always be crap. Sturgeon's Law applies in any fandom popular enough to have more than two or three people writing stories (I contrast you with the GrimGrimoire fandom, where your opinion on whether the fandom has destroyed Lillet/Amoretta pretty much depends on your opinion of my writing since I've produced about 75% of the written fiction in the whole fandom Mad ). Since the Mai franchise is fairly popular, it's produced a ton of bad fiction. Again, applying Sturgeon's Law, there are as of now 3781 Mai-franchise fics at fanfiction.net alone, of which, therefore, 3403 are crap. That's a lot of bad writing. On the other hand, it's 378 good fics by the same math, which is only a couple dozen fics less than exist in total for Kannazuki no Miko.

Bad writers will paint with broad strokes because they have no idea of how to write the nuances of a character. It's a thousand times worse in "humor" fics because immature minds find laughter in even broader strokes. Thus "Natsuki's favorite food is mayonnaise"* becomes "Natsuki puts a quart of mayonnaise in her soup." "Shizuru likes tea and practices tea ceremony" becomes "Shizuru never goes anywhere without tea in hand." "Takeda is an overzealous guy with a hopeless crush and horrible luck" becomes "Takada is a horrific monster who must be destroyed, DESTROYED I TELL YOU!!!!!!!!!!" (I'm amazed how much Reito gets similar treatment from the Shizuru side of the ship, given that he spends the entire series pursuing a different girl, I must admit. confused )

*It's in her character profile on the official website, BTW.

...and frankly, canon doesn't help, either. Most of the Drama CD tracks spend more time going for trashy humor (Negi. 'Nuff said.) than entertaining stories. Most of Otome and Zwei were spent in idiotic comedy, Flanderization, and fanservice (You want to complain about idiot fandom members making Haruka out to look like a fool and a blowhard? Let's talk about what Sunrise did, in making her someone who has to be hit on the head with giant boulders by her own side to keep from doing something obvious and stupid in military situations.).

So...no, I don't find that my enjoyment of Shizuru and Natsuki has been destroyed by the fandom. I think it helps that I was never a big participant in "the fandom" per se (my enjoyment of Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha, on the other hand, was completely destroyed by my interactions with the fans rather than any reaction to the creative fanworks). I ignore bad writing as best I can and prefer to savor the fiction that instead treats these, and other characters, as enjoyable and pleasant, so that I can appreciate their nuances for who they are.

...On the other hand, I write stories in which the cast goofs around with miniature versions of their CHILDs, so who the hell am I to complain, anyway, right?
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Re: Has the fandom destroyed ShizNat for yuri lovers and HiME fans alike?

Post by MidnightPersona on Mon May 28, 2012 10:27 pm

Well, I think some of this comes from the fact I'm a Column on Mai=Multiverse. I have little choice but to experience the fandom consistently and, honestly? The fans are the ones whom write the crappy fanfics and, therefore, are a part of it falling apart. I am anti-NatNao to an extreme when people basically twist and manipulate the story to make certain aspects of their relationship sexual when it's not, but that's another topic.

Also, I don't think Otome/Zwei were that bad, but they focused too little on the characters. Some characters did have the unfortunate destiny of their worst sides being shown but that's why I can watch HiME over-and-over (when I usually hate watching things) and Otome not so much. Zwei I tend to watch ep. 2 over and over just for the (I swear) canon HaruKino.

Anyways, I am still digressing.

Also, based on the people I've talked to on MM and off MM... the biggest reason for dislike of ShizNat (And eventual leaving of the fandom) are, mostly, ShizNat fans misinterpreting and taking things too far *The second most common being NatNao fans/fanfics and such).

In truth, if fans would be more intelligent (with any fandom) and actually make an attempt to UNDERSTAND the characters, all would be well. In fact, all of the people whom I know of that have been banned from MM are ShizNat and NatNao fans whom are unable to have the common sense to be able to act like adults and 'emulate' their favorites of the three (Shiz, Nat, or Nao< but mostly Shizuru) and fail in almost all things by being general dicks.

I do understand ShizNat is well liked and needed to promote any HiME/Otome forum, but I feel too much of ANY pairing in ANY fandom is a bad thing.

I mean, Nanoha for example. (I still need to watch the rest, I wish there was a manga I could read. xD) All I hear of are Nanoha and Fate and I'm HONESTLY afraid of watching the series and NOT liking the real Fate (but there is a chance she is even better, or the same, but the fear is still there) because I like how one writer does the characters and don't want to be... disappointed? Yeah. xD But I also don't assume I can write NanoFate by just reading other peoples work like I know some people do in the HiME fandom.

I love these replies. x3 My brain is going soo fast. xD
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Re: Has the fandom destroyed ShizNat for yuri lovers and HiME fans alike?

Post by Kagu on Tue May 29, 2012 12:02 am

Gettin' mad about bad fanfiction on the internet. .__.

Is it odd that I usually avoid ShizNat fanfics with poorly written/clichéd summaries and ridiculous amounts of reviews on the basis that it will likely have everything I hate about the fandom in it? Whether the characters are skewed to the extreme
Example:
Shizuru self-loathing and whining and laying in a pool of self-inflicted anguish because she can't possibly live if Natsuki doesn't even pay the least bit of attention to her and oh it's so terrible that she's gay and being gay is dirty and unforgivable and an embarrassment and her feelings are damnable because Natsuki - pure, unblemished Natsuki will never return them because etc. etc. etc. (Yes, these exist. Yes, I read them because I hate myself.) and she's just wrenching herself apart, and...okay, you get the idea. Shizuru's imperfect, yes, but for all her flaws, she's not going to be limping around after the Carnival and making people (the readers) wonder if she's not just going to up and kill herself due to all the angst.
or it's the same clichéd storylines over and over ad nauseum.

The fandom is a double-edged sword because on one hand, it makes me want to write something with proper characterization, have none of those godforsaken memes, and have it be an actual contribution worth putting out there. On the other hand, I just don't give a crap because for all the people that complain about the fandom being stupid, there are probably hundreds more that go "OMG mayo-flavored tea lololol best fic EVER!" And don't even get me started on the vampire and werewolf AUs--they're overblown enough as it is.

DezoPenguin wrote:...On the other hand, I write stories in which the cast goofs around with miniature versions of their CHILDs, so who the hell am I to complain, anyway, right?

Your "Duran and Kiyohime's Omake Theater" never fails to make me smile when I see it's been updated. IMO, you're perfectly entitled to complain because it's obvious that even in AU settings, you work to keep to the original personalities as much as possible.


Last edited by Kagu on Tue May 29, 2012 6:13 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : I was being stupid.)

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Re: Has the fandom destroyed ShizNat for yuri lovers and HiME fans alike?

Post by DezoPenguin on Tue May 29, 2012 10:40 pm

Kagu wrote:
Is it odd that I usually avoid ShizNat fanfics with poorly written/clichéd summaries and ridiculous amounts of reviews on the basis that it will likely have everything I hate about the fandom in it? Whether the characters are skewed to the extreme
Example:
Shizuru self-loathing and whining and laying in a pool of self-inflicted anguish because she can't possibly live if Natsuki doesn't even pay the least bit of attention to her and oh it's so terrible that she's gay and being gay is dirty and unforgivable and an embarrassment and her feelings are damnable because Natsuki - pure, unblemished Natsuki will never return them because etc. etc. etc. (Yes, these exist. Yes, I read them because I hate myself.) and she's just wrenching herself apart, and...okay, you get the idea. Shizuru's imperfect, yes, but for all her flaws, she's not going to be limping around after the Carnival and making people (the readers) wonder if she's not just going to up and kill herself due to all the angst.

Windows of the Soul managed to do angsty post-Carnival Shizuru very well. Largely because her angst and guilt were over serious things like raping Natsuki (yes, Lestaki took the worst possible interpretation of that scene) and slaughtering dozens of people who didn't come back from the dead, even if they were members of an evil government conspiracy rather than wallowing in gayngst--and because she and Natsuki both were presented as extremely complex characters. I've read a couple of other good ones...and seen soooooooooo many utterly awful ones.

I guess it all comes down to characterization. The type of fic you describe is full of fail because it makes Shizuru angsty over something that was already resolved in canon and ignores character development for both halves of the pairing. Actually, that tends to be a real hallmark of bad fanfiction. The Kannazuki no Miko fandom, even in continuation fics, is utterly awash in stories which have zero-self-esteem, shrinking-violet Himeko and pristine, perfect, horribly-angsty-inside Chikane, ignoring both the truth lying beneath these appearances and the major steps both of them take forward in the story. While I'm not sick of ShizNat generally, I have no desire at all to read set-in-canon stories where for some reason Natsuki hasn't learned to trust in other people and admit that she can care for them, and where Shizuru hasn't opened herself up to Natsuki instead of hiding behind smiles and fufufus. And for that matter, I'm not all that interested in reading 'em in AU either, because the authors often don't have the capacity to recognize that both are complex characters.

The fandom is a double-edged sword because on one hand, it makes me want to write something with proper characterization, have none of those godforsaken memes, and have it be an actual contribution worth putting out there.

I encourage you to go with this impulse! Wink

DezoPenguin wrote:...On the other hand, I write stories in which the cast goofs around with miniature versions of their CHILDs, so who the hell am I to complain, anyway, right?

Your "Duran and Kiyohime's Omake Theater" never fails to make me smile when I see it's been updated. IMO, you're perfectly entitled to complain because it's obvious that even in AU settings, you work to keep to the original personalities as much as possible.

Aw, thank you. Very Happy

Hm...you know, it seems that glancing through this thread, everybody seems to agree on what's wrong with the pairing's treatment; it's just a matter of whether that has worn down one's patience for the characters and pairing (presuming, of course, that one liked them in the first place, as there are also people who never liked Shizuru and/or Natsuki to begin with).
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Re: Has the fandom destroyed ShizNat for yuri lovers and HiME fans alike?

Post by Alaeri on Wed May 30, 2012 7:51 am

See, I hated Windows of the Soul. I hated his characterizations. What Kagu described with Shizuru angst is what I think of when I think of that story.

I agree, I think we all know what is wrong with the section as a whole (it could be worse, it could be the SP section o.o; ). Honestly, being Shay's beta has made me loath the fandom with such disdain that it's hard to put into words. I can't stand most of the fans because they're idiots and are only interested in perpetuating these overused fanon characterizations. I'm one of those people that has lost all patience for this fandom, and most of the others.

I don't understand those people that write/read a pairing when they don't like one of the characters, or haven't watched the anime.

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Re: Has the fandom destroyed ShizNat for yuri lovers and HiME fans alike?

Post by Demon on Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:19 am

I'll answer the actual question sometime, but I just wanted to add that it's mostly comments like this that've destroyed the "fandom." Last time I checked, this was the Mai Hime fandom, and not the Shiznat fandom, so we I get comments telling me to delete other chapters and just write Shiznat, know what that makes me want to do? Not write Shiznat. ^^

"Story: What Could Be
Chapter: 2. Angels

From: Anonymous
-------------------
Get rid of this chapter... its stupid and not really important. More ShizNat please. :3"

Lul, excuse me sir or madam "Anonymous," you go onto a short-story collection of mine where I say not all the stories will be Shiznat, and tell me to delete a story that's centered around my favorite pairing (which is *gasp!* not Shiznat!), you can gtfo my stories. :3 If you want more Shiznat you write it. :3 And you see how adding cat faces isn't making this post any "cuter" or "likeable?" :3 Oh, and I deleted your review because it pissed me off. :3

Yeah, this has put me off of fanfiction for a while. -_- /end of rant
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Re: Has the fandom destroyed ShizNat for yuri lovers and HiME fans alike?

Post by Alaeri on Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:24 am

Wow, I can't believe someone actually 'commented' that (since they're apparently no longer called reviews).

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Re: Has the fandom destroyed ShizNat for yuri lovers and HiME fans alike?

Post by Demon on Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:33 am

I ranted to Kagu a little before posting it here. But yeah, I can understand not like Midori/Youko and wanting more Shiznat (don't read it then?), but to actually go out and tell the author to delete a chapter is absolutely ridiculous. You guys think I write to appease you all? No. I happen to do this because I like writing as a hobby.

I wonder why they're called comments now? Because no one actually "reviews" anymore? =/
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Re: Has the fandom destroyed ShizNat for yuri lovers and HiME fans alike?

Post by Alaeri on Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:27 am

Probably. I remember getting a text from Shay telling me that they're no longer called reviews.

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Re: Has the fandom destroyed ShizNat for yuri lovers and HiME fans alike?

Post by RGigantea on Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:41 am

Looking at what readers leave behind, they are really more like comments than reviews.

I hear you, demon. Writing is a hobby, not to appease readers!

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Re: Has the fandom destroyed ShizNat for yuri lovers and HiME fans alike?

Post by therese_tessa on Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:50 am

looks like some of you hated SHIZNAT but I do like them... it depends on the writer if they like to made Reito, Takeda and Yuichi a bad guys on SHIZNAT FANFIC... we don't have a right to tell them that it was wrong... walang pakialamanan.... I'M A SHIZNAT FANS FOREVER.... if you like make your own story without SHIZNAT and let's see.. if they want to see it and fave them....

SHIZNAT......

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Re: Has the fandom destroyed ShizNat for yuri lovers and HiME fans alike?

Post by Demon on Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:52 am

therese_tessa wrote:looks like some of you hated SHIZNAT but I do like them... it depends on the writer if they like to made Reito, Takeda and Yuichi a bad guys on SHIZNAT FANFIC... we don't have a right to tell them that it was wrong... walang pakialamanan.... I'M A SHIZNAT FANS FOREVER.... if you like make your own story without SHIZNAT and let's see.. if they want to see it and fave them.

First off, welcome to the forum, Tessa! ^^/ Glad you could join us on Dare.

As for hating Shiznat, we don't hate it. (Well, maybe Ala might have grown to dislike that pairing, if I remember correctly.) Some of us are just tired of seeing only Shiznat, or how people often portray the two in fanfiction.

I like Shiznat. I still read Shiznat occasionally. But they're not my favorite pairing for this series. Maybe second or third favorite, but not my first.
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Re: Has the fandom destroyed ShizNat for yuri lovers and HiME fans alike?

Post by Oaden on Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:16 am

ShizNat has been milked a bit to much, the community has established a weird canon around them that has roots in other fanfiction instead of original series.

Things like fujino corp, natsuki owning a garage shop, Natsuki and Shizuru obsessed with mayo and tea. The novelty of them has worn out.

I still like shiznat, and i still follow a few fictions regarding them, but it would be nice if the characters were less flanderized (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Flanderization) in them. Shizuru is either a genius superhuman talented in everything, or a walking emotional wreck and that is starting to get annoying.

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Re: Has the fandom destroyed ShizNat for yuri lovers and HiME fans alike?

Post by Kagu on Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:51 am

...Guys. You guys. I just realized something.

If Shizuru's accent/dialect is comparable to the United States Southern accent/dialect

has anybody actually...y'know...written her in English-language fanfics as talking in a Southern drawl?

Because it's always been "elegant" this and "Natsuki melted at her sexy accent" that and I don't think I've ever seen anything otherwise.

(If yes, please tell me. I just had this stunning revelation while not quite entirely awake and it's sufficiently blown my mind.)

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Re: Has the fandom destroyed ShizNat for yuri lovers and HiME fans alike?

Post by Oaden on Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:58 am

I seem to remember the artist Ookami (forgot her full name) mentioning this. Shizuru was never implied to be a rich lady (The house was a classmates). but more of a refined country bumpkin. Hence the choice was southern belle.

Of course everyone writes her as a twenty something CEO from a insanely rich family instead.


Last edited by Oaden on Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:09 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Has the fandom destroyed ShizNat for yuri lovers and HiME fans alike?

Post by Alaeri on Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:59 pm

I dislike the pairing these days for everything Oaden's said.

I don't like this pairing anymore and once the fics I'm following end, that will be it.

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Re: Has the fandom destroyed ShizNat for yuri lovers and HiME fans alike?

Post by shezaei_neko on Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:13 pm

I'll keep things short and just sharing my thoughts.

ShizuNatsu are individual characters have a lot of potential be it in the hime universe or an AU if you know how to handle them.

What I think that the 'fandom' has done with this couple in the past years
is due to the lack of understanding, and why is that?
Well, because unfortunately the authors or artist (which some may be ravid yuri fans)
that use ShizuNatsu in their work do not know how they are! They haven't
read the manga or watch the series, and much less read all the extra
material out there to try to analize them and portray them close to what
they may be.
They came across them because there's so much material
out there of these two that they wanted to give it a try, thus they
have only read stories that do not show how Shizuru and Natsuki really
are. And sadly they back-up their works with the AU and OOC argument.
I don't think it's bad if it is necessary for the plot and development of a story but please, don't overuse it.


That's the problem. Many readers and authors take
what is written in fanfiction as canon because they haven't watched the
anime or read the manga.
And the moment they read something that
certainly takes canon elements from whatever reliable source, they don't
take it nicely cause it's different from what they've been exposed
before.

Let's be sincere, I've read comments be either reviews
or author's notes where they claim they have not seen the series, but
they thought the couple was nice and they had read some other works that
inspired them....
And I mean, that's good, that a work inspires you
to do something. But please, if you are going to use the same characters
at least get to kow them how they really are, and also so you get to
see what was what inpsired that author to create the piece that also
inspired you...

This of course it's only my opinion. And this might have ruined the fandom for some people.
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Re: Has the fandom destroyed ShizNat for yuri lovers and HiME fans alike?

Post by Alaeri on Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:19 am

That's a very good point Neko. I agree with all of it.

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Re: Has the fandom destroyed ShizNat for yuri lovers and HiME fans alike?

Post by Pontianak on Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:11 pm

Everything I've already wanted to say has been said, so in short, my answer is "no, I still like the pairing". There's always going to be bad fanfic for any popular thing - you just need to take a gander down to the Hetalia section to see that - but those bad fanfics don't negate the existence of good ones. If the bad fanfics bother you, just don't read them?

That being said, I wish there was more variety of pairings in the fanfic, but eh. I'll read anything if it's good, so the actual pairings don't bother me.

If Shizuru's accent/dialect is comparable to the United States Southern accent/dialect

iirc Kansai-ben is just a more melodic version of Tokyo-ben that has a historical link towards using keigo, or "polite" Japanese speech.

Kyoto-ben is regarded as elegant and refined, with a relatively strong tendency towards indirectness and respect, as well as being a very delicate/feminine way of speaking. Obviously that's becoming more and more obsolete in practice with industrialisation and migration, but mangaka and authors will usually use Kyoto-ben for the epitome of grace and... poshness, if you will, so a royal British accent might be more of an accurate English localisation.

Of course, even after all that, Japan's dialects aren't technically what we'd call accents. As you've probably read in the multitudes of fanfics you've mentioned, dialects in Japan focus more on alternative words rather than vocal inflection, so saying "arimahen/omahen" instead of "arimasen", and "dosu e" instead of "desu yo". I'm hesitant to use "ikezu", "kannin na" or "ookini" as examples for obvious reasons.

Any antropologists focusing on Japan should feel free to jump in and correct me if I've got that info from disreputable sources or anything, though.

tl;dr The American Southern accent would be a fairer comparison to posh Osaka-ben rather than Kyoto-ben and translating a dialect into an accent is awkward anyway.

Slight digression here, but am I the only one who finds bad fanfiction hilarious? Hijacked My Pregnancy, anyone? No?
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Re: Has the fandom destroyed ShizNat for yuri lovers and HiME fans alike?

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